Curse

Seraphim of Chaos · Mar 18, 2009, 04:47 AM // 04:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by Greedy Gus

Given general attributes for ease of calculation, and some basic rounding:

14 str 14 hammer, assuming ~20% chance of critical hits

---

On a 3-hit timeframe (most relevant with prot strike) against 60AL

vamp = +15 damage always

0 sunder procs (51%) = +0
1 sunder procs (38%) = +20 on crit (20%), +6-12 no crit (80%)
2 sunder procs (10%) = +40 on crits (4%), +26-32 single crit (32%), +12-24 no crits (64%)
3 sunder procs (1%) = +60 on crits (1%), +46-52 dual crits (10%), +32-44 single crit (38%), +18-36 no crits (51%)

So that's more than 80% of spikes that do purely less damage on sundering, about 14% that do around equal or marginally more damage, 4% do about 6-14 more damage, and 1-2% for significantly more damage (+15 to +45 at the fartest extreme).

Sunder vs. vamp isn't hugely meaningful, but don't trick yourself into thinking sundering is better on spike timeframes.

Key word: potential. If you're not getting spikes though on vamp, the last resort is to pull spikes on sundering and hit for big damg.

Greedy Gus · Mar 18, 2009, 06:47 AM // 06:47

I'd rather go get a job than start trying to win the lottery when I get low on money. 'Try shit' is good advice when your current strat isn't working. Sticking to the same formula and switching to something that is worse or about the same 95 times out of 100 is not.

Motoko · Mar 18, 2009, 10:41 AM // 10:41

Vamp hammers are bad. Don't use them.

Sundering and Elemental hammers.

If you are trying to win your game by "pressuring out" with your hammer, rethink your game play.

AT MOST (this is the only thing you could attempt to argue for vamp hammers) have one for DPS-ing the lord in tight situations to kill the lord.

For other minor sets:

Furious spear... Obvious adrenaline based reasons.

Vamp bow... For all of those bow battles you warriors do. Mainly to build adrenaline at a distance larger than allowed by a spear.

Dual vamp low set. (+15%/-1 hp ~ +3/-1 hp) one hand weapon + a grim cesta (-50hp)
Simply for death before timer situations.

zling · Mar 18, 2009, 12:07 PM // 12:07

sundering is terrible unless using a Scythe, weapon switching ftw(if you hate it for the degen)
so, whatever weapon you want:
set 1: furious +5 spear of fortitude/defense
set 2: vampiric whatever 15^50 of fortitude/defense
set 3: zealous whatever 15^50 of fortitude/defense
set 4: elemental whatever 15^50 of fortitude/defense

shields are:
+10 vs ... +30
20% blind +30
20% cripple +30

-5/20 are awful, dont use them!

Divinus Stella · Mar 18, 2009, 02:04 PM // 14:04

I'm not sure where motoko's assumption that vamp hammers are bad comes from, i'd like to see how he derived that conclusion.

Sundering vs Vampiric is an old argument that been done to death, i think i remember arguing about this when i first signed up.

Vampiric offers better damage over time but its not the damage thats so great, its the fact its lifesteal and in a seperate damage packet to your melee damage.

The main argument for sundering is big damage spikes, but please understand that theres a difference between big spikes of damage and big damage on spikes.
As someone already posted the math i'm not gonna bother, sundering will sometimes give higher numbers but most of the time you will see nothing.

The main attraction to a vamp mod is that it wont trigger spirit bond, it wont add to health gain from reversal and its not capped out by prot spirit, theres plenty of other obscure instances like stoneflesh etc where it will still deal damage and incoming where it wont be halved the list goes on.

Sundering isnt a whole lot worse so your not gonna get called out on it if you do decide to use it but if your a stickler for efficiency then vamp is the choice for you.

IMMORTAlMITCH · Mar 18, 2009, 02:16 PM // 14:16

People use sundering so they don't look bad on obs when they don't weapon swap when attacking warriors

Snow Bunny · Mar 18, 2009, 04:44 PM // 16:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by IMMORTAlMITCH

People use sundering so they don't look bad on obs when they don't weapon swap when attacking warriors

Weapon swapping is so much work.

I use a sundering hammer a lot...also an ele hammer. I rarely use vamp hammers, mainly because pressure with hammers = ?

Phe Belladona · Mar 18, 2009, 05:24 PM // 17:24

sundering might be better with judges on you, every 5th hit removes over 1/3 of their armour and you're holy so its just global armour you're hitting. but yeh im with mitch for the real reason.

Motoko · Mar 18, 2009, 08:20 PM // 20:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by Divinus Stella

I'm not sure where motoko's assumption that vamp hammers are bad comes from, i'd like to see how he derived that conclusion.

What is your purpose with a vamp hammer? Are you hoping that you will hit the character so many times with the vamp hammer that the vamp damage will cause a death? If anything the hammer will call spikes on people and will want an efficient amount of damage due to armor penetration blah blah blah.

Plus, there are not many teams who are going to just let you sit on a character and just beat away with your hammer. The only reason that it is practical for the Guild Lord is that he is unprotted (most likely), and doesn't kite. It is almost more pressure on your team with degen than the other while you attempt to hit them with a vamp hammer.

@Mitch... Unless the weapons are completely different looking, maybe you stalk people in obs alot and have everyone's weapon sets written down... If the weapons look the same, how can you tell besides the damage difference?

Marxon Aurion · Mar 18, 2009, 08:58 PM // 20:58

I'm pretty sure that Mitch means that otherwise you would be attacking the warrior with a vampiric hammer and now you don't see it as fast because you don't see the life stealing.

IMMORTAlMITCH · Mar 18, 2009, 09:37 PM // 21:37

ur dum mojoko, also, sundering on the lord cause vamp doesnt count towards tiebreaker!

Motoko · Mar 18, 2009, 10:44 PM // 22:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by IMMORTAlMITCH

ur dum mojoko, also, sundering on the lord cause vamp doesnt count towards tiebreaker!

I'd rather be badiator mojoko than the bitch is bad

You mis-trolled what I was saying buddy. Vampiric will ultimately cause the lord to die faster. For lord damage you will want sundering. In the event you are trying to kill the lord asap (example: before the team gets to the lord, or before the team will base rez), you will want to use the vamp hammer.

IMMORTAlMITCH · Mar 19, 2009, 12:01 AM // 00:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gladiator Motoko

I'd rather be badiator mojoko than the bitch is bad

You mis-trolled what I was saying buddy. Vampiric will ultimately cause the lord to die faster. For lord damage you will want sundering. In the event you are trying to kill the lord asap (example: before the team gets to the lord, or before the team will base rez), you will want to use the vamp hammer.

But what if you don't kill it in time?? You'd have done more lord damage with a sundering hammer!

moriz · Mar 19, 2009, 12:40 AM // 00:40

then you'll need better decision making, so you won't try to lord gank when there's not enough time again.

as a rule of thumb, sundering will only benefit you if your weapon has:
1) high maximum damage
and/or
2) high attack speed

axes have high attack speed and relatively high maximum damage, so sundering on axe is generally good. scythes have low attack speed but insane max damage, so sundering is also good on scythes. for anything else, sundering simply wont give you a big enough damage bump to make it worthwhile over vamp.

Motoko · Mar 19, 2009, 01:14 AM // 01:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by moriz

then you'll need better decision making, so you won't try to lord gank when there's not enough time again.

Someone who is in a kappa spike guild is criticizing my decision making. Nice.

The rest of your post was accurate.

moriz · Mar 19, 2009, 01:49 AM // 01:49

i wasn't criticizing you, only the hypothetical person who used the wrong mod at the wrong time.

Motoko · Mar 19, 2009, 08:34 AM // 08:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by moriz

i wasn't criticizing you, only the hypothetical person who used the wrong mod at the wrong time.

My apologies.

Divinus Stella · Mar 19, 2009, 09:13 AM // 09:13

Well if you don't intend to cause damage with your hammer then use furious, i think we already covered the killing on spikes argument, you can stand around hoping you will get sundering to trigger on all your 3 hits but vampiric will always give you the extra 15 damage that acts outside of prots.

Motoko · Mar 19, 2009, 09:23 PM // 21:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by Divinus Stella

Well if you don't intend to cause damage with your hammer then use furious, i think we already covered the killing on spikes argument, you can stand around hoping you will get sundering to trigger on all your 3 hits but vampiric will always give you the extra 15 damage that acts outside of prots.

Chance are if you are training a protted target and hoping to get the vamp hits through the prot, you are probably on the wrong target.

In the event that the target is about to die and you are trying to kill it with the vamp procs, you are probably playing the wrong type of warrior.

Hammer isn't meant for pressuring out a team directly by dps. Period.

zling · Mar 19, 2009, 10:00 PM // 22:00

so tell me, how exactly does sundering help when vampiric will be so terrible on hammers?
if you get lucky you'll get 1 "spike hit" however there are no guarantees that this "spike hit" wont eat up a prot, nor even finish the target off. hence making it pretty useless. vampiric is constant damage, and most people preffer +15 constant unconditional and unprottable damage(well life steal but lets just call it damage for this) to unsecured +20% AP that depends on target(squishie or not, shield, survivor/+armor etc).

and no, sundering doesnt>vampiric on spike and <vampiric on pressure, that's just bull... vampiric is better all the time unless using a Scythe(crazy max damage)

oh and moriz, high attack speed doesnt make sundering any better, just the damage output. higher damage output means bigger effect for increased AP(from sundering) higher attack speed just means more hits in, which works equally for both mods.